Discussion:
FVWM: HEADS UP: Releasing 2.6.4 end of January
Thomas Adam
2012-01-21 21:31:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I'll be releasing FVWM 2.6.4 sometime before the end of January.

I'll try and post some patches to the list regarding module deprecation
ideas, although that's still on-going -- the likelihood is they won't be
ready, not that it matters.

Please remember this will be my last official task for FVWM for quite a
while. Any questions, pleae ask.

Jason, I assume you're happy to do the usual?

-- Thomas Adam
Harry portobello
2012-01-23 21:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Adam
Hi,
I'll be releasing FVWM 2.6.4 sometime before the end of January.
I'll try and post some patches to the list regarding module deprecation
ideas, although that's still on-going -- the likelihood is they won't be
ready, not that it matters.
what is the importance of these patches?
Post by Thomas Adam
Please remember this will be my last official task for FVWM for quite a
while.  Any questions, pleae ask.
why? i still dont understnad what happens to fvwm when you leave? i
think it will be better off, no? because then other developers can
concentrate on adding features they want without you removing them or
being anal about things,

Harry
Thomas Adam
2012-01-23 22:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry portobello
Post by Thomas Adam
Hi,
I'll be releasing FVWM 2.6.4 sometime before the end of January.
I'll try and post some patches to the list regarding module deprecation
ideas, although that's still on-going -- the likelihood is they won't be
ready, not that it matters.
what is the importance of these patches?
Read:

http://www.mail-archive.com/fvwm-***@fvwm.org/msg02635.html

Including follow-up threads, etc.
Post by Harry portobello
Post by Thomas Adam
Please remember this will be my last official task for FVWM for quite a
while.  Any questions, pleae ask.
why? i still dont understnad what happens to fvwm when you leave? i
think it will be better off, no? because then other developers can
concentrate on adding features they want without you removing them or
being anal about things,
I'm sorry you feel as though I've been a hindrance to this project rather
than a help. However, given that I've seen nothing but general negativity
from you, it's often difficult for me to distinguish that from any genuine
problems you've been having.

That said, I often feel as though I've gone out of my way to help you, and
at times have disregarded ad-hominem attacks against me from you in
bettering FVWM. So until you can point me at genuine issues, I'll continue
to side-step your hollow rhetoric for as long as I consider you asking
genuine questions about FVWM.

And no, that's not a waste of my time, that's just helping others who have
to suffer your bullshit to get something good from it rather than us going
round in circles reading your insufferable rhetoric. The sooner you
understand how my actions here are a *good* thing for the people here, the
more you have a chance of being listened to.

-- Thomas Adam
--
"Deep in my heart I wish I was wrong. But deep in my heart I know I am
not." -- Morrissey ("Girl Least Likely To" -- off of Viva Hate.)
Shaika-Dzari
2012-01-24 00:28:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Harry portobello
why?  i still dont understnad what happens to fvwm when you leave? i
think it will be better off, no? because then other developers can
concentrate on adding features they want without you removing them or
being anal about things,
Harry
Ok, now it's enough.
Harry, you're not happy ?
This is open source software , fork fwvm and let us see how you will
write and manage this code base.

What did you contribute ? Nothing.
Which one did you help ? No one.

I have more than enough to see your message insulting people.
So go away, I'm sure no one will miss you here.
Harry portobello
2012-01-27 21:11:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shaika-Dzari
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Harry portobello
why?  i still dont understnad what happens to fvwm when you leave? i
think it will be better off, no? because then other developers can
concentrate on adding features they want without you removing them or
being anal about things,
Harry
Ok, now it's enough.
Harry, you're not happy ?
This is open source software , fork fwvm and let us see how you will
write and manage this code base.
What did you contribute ? Nothing.
Which one did you help ? No one.
we have lots of patches like adding round corners and fluxbox handels
which have not been added to fvwm in long time - and why is this? why
isnt the maintainer - thomas - adding these?

ive been asking for them before and i think i read other people want them too

so a new maintainer should listen more to this i hope

Harry
Viktor Griph
2012-01-29 08:08:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry portobello
we have lots of patches like adding round corners and fluxbox handels
which have not been added to fvwm in long time - and why is this? why
isnt the maintainer - thomas - adding these?
There is no single maintainer of fvwm. It is maintained by
fvwm-workers. Thomas has been putting a lot of time and effort into
releasing 2.6, when no other fvwm-worker really has had the time to do
so. There are several reasons as of why certain patches aren't
accepted. Some of the patches affect areas of fvwm which in the long
term goal should be replaced by modules. Others are unclean, and no
one has been willing to clean up the code and write documentation for
the patches.
Post by Harry portobello
so a new maintainer should listen more to this i hope
And what makes you think that another fvwm-worker will have more time
now, when Thomas have been mostly alone doing the all hard work for
quite some time. Just because he no longer have the time either, it
doesn't mean that other fvwm-workers will have more time.

/Viktor
Harry portobello
2012-01-30 12:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Viktor Griph
Post by Harry portobello
we have lots of patches like adding round corners and fluxbox handels
which have not been added to fvwm in long time - and why is this? why
isnt the maintainer - thomas - adding these?
There is no single maintainer of fvwm. It is maintained by
fvwm-workers. Thomas has been putting a lot of time and effort into
releasing 2.6, when no other fvwm-worker really has had the time to do
so. There are several reasons as of why certain patches aren't
accepted. Some of the patches affect areas of fvwm which in the long
term goal should be replaced by modules. Others are unclean, and no
one has been willing to clean up the code and write documentation for
the patches.
i get this but if no work has happened why cant we use the patches?
its these delays which make users want to use another window manager
Post by Viktor Griph
Post by Harry portobello
so a new maintainer should listen more to this i hope
And what makes you think that another fvwm-worker will have more time
now, when Thomas have been mostly alone doing the all hard work for
quite some time. Just because he no longer have the time either, it
doesn't mean that other fvwm-workers will have more time.
i hope theyd be more responsive to questions like this - and not to ignore them

Harry
Chris Siebenmann
2012-01-30 14:37:36 UTC
Permalink
| > [...] There are several reasons as of why certain patches aren't
| > accepted. Some of the patches affect areas of fvwm which in the long
| > term goal should be replaced by modules. Others are unclean, and no
| > one has been willing to clean up the code and write documentation for
| > the patches.
|
| i get this but if no work has happened why cant we use the patches?
| its these delays which make users want to use another window manager

You should be able to use the patches without problems, assuming that
they apply cleanly; just build a personal version of fvwm with the
patches applied. No one requires that you run only fvwm source straight
from the distribution tarballs or the CVS repository.

If the patches do not apply cleanly or do not work as-is, well, someone
has to do the work to make them work. The fvwm maintainers are not going
to do this work for patches that they feel are a bad idea, for obvious
reasons.

- cks, who patches his own version of fvwm and accepts the
job of maintaining those patches
Harry portobello
2012-02-01 22:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Siebenmann
| > [...] There are several reasons as of why certain patches aren't
| > accepted. Some of the patches affect areas of fvwm which in the long
| > term goal should be replaced by modules. Others are unclean, and no
| > one has been willing to clean up the code and write documentation for
| > the patches.
|
| i get this but if no work has happened why cant we use the patches?
| its these delays which make users want to use another window manager
 You should be able to use the patches without problems, assuming that
they apply cleanly; just build a personal version of fvwm with the
patches applied. No one requires that you run only fvwm source straight
from the distribution tarballs or the CVS repository.
 If the patches do not apply cleanly or do not work as-is, well, someone
has to do the work to make them work. The fvwm maintainers are not going
to do this work for patches that they feel are a bad idea, for obvious
reasons.
i understand this, chris, but i still do not think you understand my
point. these patches, good or bad, have been about for years and no
fvwm developer has wanted to clean them up

i do not need to understand why - but if their not going to be applied
soon - they should issue a statement to say this, and then let others
fork fvwm

right now i am thinking i will fork fvwm - no one who is a developer
cares to answer me. i find that suckie

what patches do you write which you maintain then?

Harry
Dan Espen
2012-02-02 01:59:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry portobello
i understand this, chris, but i still do not think you understand my
point. these patches, good or bad, have been about for years and no
fvwm developer has wanted to clean them up
Rounded corners was discussed. You just weren't around.

My memory is that we agreed that the feature is bloat.

If that bloat can be kept out of the core of Fvwm the patch
would probably be accepted.
Post by Harry portobello
i do not need to understand why - but if their not going to be applied
soon - they should issue a statement to say this, and then let others
fork fvwm
As far as I know, those patches don't exist on the Fvwm web site.

Not sure where they are actually.
Post by Harry portobello
right now i am thinking i will fork fvwm - no one who is a developer
cares to answer me. i find that suckie
I've been trying to ignore you because of your bad manners.
--
Dan Espen
Michael Großer
2012-02-02 07:13:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry portobello
Post by Chris Siebenmann
| > [...] There are several reasons as of why certain patches aren't
| > accepted. Some of the patches affect areas of fvwm which in the long
| > term goal should be replaced by modules. Others are unclean, and no
| > one has been willing to clean up the code and write documentation for
| > the patches.
|
| i get this but if no work has happened why cant we use the patches?
| its these delays which make users want to use another window manager
You should be able to use the patches without problems, assuming that
they apply cleanly; just build a personal version of fvwm with the
patches applied. No one requires that you run only fvwm source straight
from the distribution tarballs or the CVS repository.
If the patches do not apply cleanly or do not work as-is, well, someone
has to do the work to make them work. The fvwm maintainers are not going
to do this work for patches that they feel are a bad idea, for obvious
reasons.
i understand this, chris, but i still do not think you understand my
point. these patches, good or bad, have been about for years and no
fvwm developer has wanted to clean them up
i do not need to understand why - but if their not going to be applied
soon - they should issue a statement to say this, and then let others
fork fvwm
right now i am thinking i will fork fvwm - no one who is a developer
Here is an idea what you could do for the FVWM community:

You could write how-tos yourself about using certain patches,
publish them at your own website or in a wiki somewhere at fvwm.org,
and make your how-tos known.

I don't need windows with round corners, because round corners
do not accelerate any kind of workflow. They are just superfluous
(I really don't want that FVWM becomes yet another bloated, unusable
KDE4). But if someone wants to apply such kind of patch, why shouldn't
he/she be able to read a how-to, apply the patch and finally use it?

Write these how-tos, collect the patches somewhere, show your
readers where they can find the patches and how to use them, and
make your contributions to the FVWM project this way.

The next possible mistake you could make may be that you include
too much of yout frustration into the how-tos. But the advantage
of the process of writing down something is that people or later
you can spot the flaws in your how-tos, and you can defuse them
during the next iterations. The final result will be a collection
of how-tos useful for the community.

Another thing: Your English skills are not very good, because
you are (like me) not a native speaker. Writing how-tos in bad
language that is difficult to read could be contra-productive
(the better the language the more useful is the how-to). But,
my English skills improved dramatically as soon as I started
writing technical documentation in English. Writing manuals could
be a chance for you to improve your language skills. Once again,
writing down something and constantly revising your products
in iterations is the key to improve your language skills,
improve the value of your how-tos and finally to improve the
value you could provide potential users of the patches.

Try to establish a focal point about how to apply FVWM patches,
and perhaps you could start a new community of people who like
different flavors of patched FVWM versions.
Post by Harry portobello
cares to answer me. i find that suckie
what patches do you write which you maintain then?
Harry
Michael
Chris Siebenmann
2012-02-03 00:35:40 UTC
Permalink
| what patches do you write which you maintain then?

At the moment the only meaningful patch I've made to fvwm is one to
position new icons at the mouse cursor instead of where they normally go
(I think the window's top left if you don't have an iconbox set up, but
I forget). In the past I had more modifications but they've gradually
become unnecessary over the years[*].

(People tried to help me with a Style-based approach to doing this
icon positioning, but I never could get it working completely (the
comments in my fvwmrc suggest that I couldn't get positioning of windows
with explicit icon position hints correct). So at some point I punted
and went for the code change as the easiest approach for getting my
personal environment working. Have chainsaw, can blindly hack code I
run myself. There's a discussion of this in the fvwm archives from a
year or two ago.)

- cks
[*: for example, one large one was to make windows placed by button 3
automatically grow to the bottom of the screen. When I migrated to
fvwm 2.5.x, I believe the mailing list showed me how do this with
existing fvwm features.]
Dan Espen
2012-02-03 02:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Siebenmann
| what patches do you write which you maintain then?
At the moment the only meaningful patch I've made to fvwm is one to
position new icons at the mouse cursor instead of where they normally go
(I think the window's top left if you don't have an iconbox set up, but
I forget). In the past I had more modifications but they've gradually
become unnecessary over the years[*].
(People tried to help me with a Style-based approach to doing this
icon positioning, but I never could get it working completely (the
comments in my fvwmrc suggest that I couldn't get positioning of windows
with explicit icon position hints correct). So at some point I punted
and went for the code change as the easiest approach for getting my
personal environment working. Have chainsaw, can blindly hack code I
run myself. There's a discussion of this in the fvwm archives from a
year or two ago.)
There is one built in iconbox, starting at the upper left as you
observed.

An iconbox line for style "*" replaces the built in box with
one or more boxes.

I use 2 narrow style "*" boxes, one going down the right, then another
going across the bottom.

I create another iconbox for style "Tkremind" to position
Tkremind's icon in a specific place.

Mouseplacement for an icon sounds unpleasant.
--
Dan Espen
Chris Siebenmann
2012-02-03 02:40:18 UTC
Permalink
| > At the moment the only meaningful patch I've made to fvwm is one to
| > position new icons at the mouse cursor instead of where they normally go
| > (I think the window's top left if you don't have an iconbox set up, but
| > I forget). [...]
[...]
| Mouseplacement for an icon sounds unpleasant.

Possibly I'm used to it from years of using twm before fvwm, but it
just makes sense to my mind and my fingers. When I iconify something
that has a real icon, I want its icon to be right there where I expect
it and can find it. Then I'll move it to some place that makes sense to
me; I am strong on spatial organization of iconified things[*].

Of course this is one good reason for it to be and remain a personal
patch; I can't expect other people to think about icons and icon layout
the way I do.

- cks
[*: people who like such things can be horrified by the screenshot at
http://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/sysadmin/MyDesktopTour
]

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