FVWM: Should We Keep the Debian's Default Config?

[Vincent W. Chen]

Hi,

Before the current version in Debian unstable (2.6.5), when a user
starts fvwm with no config file, the default from
/etc/X11/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc would be used instead. The intention
seems to be to offer users a more usable starting config with which to
customize[1]. However, according to Thomas in bug #598948 [2], this
differs from the upstream behavior, causes support problems upstream,
and is currently undocumented.

Personally, I would like to remove this behavior, since I do not use
the default config myself and probably won't have time to maintain it.
I also think fvwm by nature is configurable and is meant to be
modified, so providing a default, Debian specific config doesn't make
much sense to me.

So I'd like to ask any Debian FVWM users whether you rely on this
behavior or find it useful: when starting fvwm with no user config,
the default from /etc/X11/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc is used instead. If
people want to keep this then I will reintroduce this in unstable,
with this behavior documented somewhere. If not, then I'll just close
the bug.

P.S. Should I also ask this on debian-user? Not sure where Debian FVWM
users congregate...

Regards,

Vincent Chen

[1] From the changelog by the previous maintainer Manoj:

* [58b579f]: [debiandir:fvwm]: Add a system.fvwm2rc file back
After 5 years, Debian reintroduces the default system configuration
file for fvwm, system.fvwm2rc, back to the distribution. But instead
of the old, ugly, mostly low usability default configuratgion, this
configuration file is derived from a flattened theme from fvwm-
themes, and uses most of the modern conventions of new fvwm
(colorsets, etc). The new system.fvwm2rc file also suports teh Debian
menusystem, and can serve as a decent starting point for modification
-- and should easily be converted into a fvwm theme again.

-- Manoj Srivastava <***@debian.org> Thu, 09 Jul 2009 00:41:42 -0500

[2] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=598948

[Dan Espen]

Post by Vincent W. Chen
Hi,
Before the current version in Debian unstable (2.6.5), when a user
starts fvwm with no config file, the default from
/etc/X11/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc would be used instead. The intention

Fvwm isn't designed to be started that way.
You just start with no config.

Press any mouse button, or the F1 or Help key on the root and you get
MenuFvwmRoot. From there you choose 2 ways to build a starting
config file. Either one is better than using system.fvwm2rc.

[Vincent W. Chen]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Vincent W. Chen
Hi,
Before the current version in Debian unstable (2.6.5), when a user
starts fvwm with no config file, the default from
/etc/X11/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc would be used instead. The intention

Fvwm isn't designed to be started that way.
You just start with no config.
Press any mouse button, or the F1 or Help key on the root and you get
MenuFvwmRoot. From there you choose 2 ways to build a starting
config file. Either one is better than using system.fvwm2rc.

I understand that. I'm also in favor of keeping the behavior the same
between upstream and Debian. I started this thread to see if any
Debian Fvwm user depends on the old behavior (i.e. read system.fvwm2rc
when user has no config) or if anyone wants it reintroduced.

Regards,

Vincent Chen

[Chris Bannister]

Post by Vincent W. Chen
I understand that. I'm also in favor of keeping the behavior the same
between upstream and Debian. I started this thread to see if any
Debian Fvwm user depends on the old behavior (i.e. read system.fvwm2rc

And you're assuming that any Debian user using the fvwm package is
subscribed to this list?

[Michael Großer]

Post by Vincent W. Chen
Hi,
Before the current version in Debian unstable (2.6.5), when a user
starts fvwm with no config file, the default from
/etc/X11/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc would be used instead. The intention
seems to be to offer users a more usable starting config with which to
customize[1]. However, according to Thomas in bug #598948 [2], this
differs from the upstream behavior, causes support problems upstream,
and is currently undocumented.
Personally, I would like to remove this behavior, since I do not use
the default config myself and probably won't have time to maintain it.
I also think fvwm by nature is configurable and is meant to be
modified, so providing a default, Debian specific config doesn't make
much sense to me.
So I'd like to ask any Debian FVWM users whether you rely on this
behavior or find it useful: when starting fvwm with no user config,
the default from /etc/X11/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc is used instead. If
people want to keep this then I will reintroduce this in unstable,
with this behavior documented somewhere. If not, then I'll just close
the bug.
P.S. Should I also ask this on debian-user? Not sure where Debian FVWM
users congregate...
Regards,
Vincent Chen
* [58b579f]: [debiandir:fvwm]: Add a system.fvwm2rc file back
After 5 years, Debian reintroduces the default system configuration
file for fvwm, system.fvwm2rc, back to the distribution. But instead
of the old, ugly, mostly low usability default configuratgion, this
configuration file is derived from a flattened theme from fvwm-
themes, and uses most of the modern conventions of new fvwm
(colorsets, etc). The new system.fvwm2rc file also suports teh Debian
menusystem, and can serve as a decent starting point for modification
-- and should easily be converted into a fvwm theme again.
[2] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=598948

If you ask me:

Debian Lenny didn't come with this feature. It exists since
Squeeze. I really became aware of this change 8 days ago (last
Saturday), and because it does not provide any benefit for me,
I will not use it (I have my own config anyway).

Another change between Lenny and Squeeze is that I have to
add 3 additional lines into my own config to get the Debian
menu as used in Lenny, but this is slightly irrelevant
to your question.

I had remarked last week that this standard config file
could be organized in a more modular style for my taste.
So, the current (Squeeze) version does not even have the
benefit to be a very useful blueprint for an own config
file, because it lacks of modularity (a requirement for
comprehensibility).

So, I will not miss it if you trash it.

My humble opinion about this :-)
- Michael -

[Claude Rubinson]

Post by Vincent W. Chen
So I'd like to ask any Debian FVWM users whether you rely on this
behavior or find it useful: when starting fvwm with no user config,
the default from /etc/X11/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc is used instead. If
people want to keep this then I will reintroduce this in unstable,
with this behavior documented somewhere. If not, then I'll just close
the bug.

It's obviously a problem if Debian's NEWS file conflicts with the
package's actual behavior, so this should to be resolved. I'd also be
in favor of removing the system-wide default config, as I don't use
it.

But it would be nice to keep the integration with the Debian menu
system. I think that it's of great value to new users if a new
install of FVWM includes the Debian menu by default. Not just because
it's user-friendly but also because it demonstrates that they don't
have to generate their own menu. If this isn't possible, maybe a
sample script could be added to /usr/share/doc/fvwm/sample.fvwmrc/
and/or a note describing how to enable the Debian menu could be added
to a Debian.README file.

Claude

[Vincent W. Chen]

Post by Claude Rubinson
But it would be nice to keep the integration with the Debian menu
system. I think that it's of great value to new users if a new
install of FVWM includes the Debian menu by default. Not just because
it's user-friendly but also because it demonstrates that they don't
have to generate their own menu. If this isn't possible, maybe a
sample script could be added to /usr/share/doc/fvwm/sample.fvwmrc/
and/or a note describing how to enable the Debian menu could be added
to a Debian.README file.

I agree that adding a note to Debian.README would be a good idea. But
I don't think including the menu by default (i.e. when the user has no
config file) is feasible, since that would substitute the problem of
this thread with a new one. Namely, difference from upstream and
causing support problem if there's a problem with the menu.

Regarding sample scripts, all the example configs under
/usr/share/doc/fvwm already include the Debian menu. I'm talking about
system.fvwm2rc-sample-1/2, system.fvwm2rc, system.fvwm2rc-sample-95,
etc.

Regards,

Vincent Chen

[Thomas Adam]

Post by Vincent W. Chen
I agree that adding a note to Debian.README would be a good idea. But
I don't think including the menu by default (i.e. when the user has no
config file) is feasible, since that would substitute the problem of
this thread with a new one. Namely, difference from upstream and
causing support problem if there's a problem with the menu.

No it wouldn't. Debian patch the crap out of software all the time;
the point here is that the Debian-specific menu not working has no
bearing over any other problems if this is the *only* thing which is
changed, because everything else is left as-is, whilst still giving
the user a chance to launch their favourite program, without the need
to launch xterm to do it. Some people don't like to type out the
commands to start, alas. :P

-- Thomas Adam

[Chris Bannister]

Post by Vincent W. Chen

Post by Claude Rubinson
But it would be nice to keep the integration with the Debian menu
system. I think that it's of great value to new users if a new
install of FVWM includes the Debian menu by default. Not just because
it's user-friendly but also because it demonstrates that they don't
have to generate their own menu. If this isn't possible, maybe a
sample script could be added to /usr/share/doc/fvwm/sample.fvwmrc/
and/or a note describing how to enable the Debian menu could be added
to a Debian.README file.

I agree that adding a note to Debian.README would be a good idea. But
I don't think including the menu by default (i.e. when the user has no
config file) is feasible, since that would substitute the problem of
this thread with a new one. Namely, difference from upstream and
causing support problem if there's a problem with the menu.

Remember, there are a number of Debian packages which differ from
upstream probably so they "fit" into the Debian 'ecoystem', please
consider fvwm in the same light. If *you* think that by having a default
menu setup is more beneficial for Debian users, then by all means go
with your gut feeling.

Users should know to report bugs to the Debian BTS where the maintainer
will handle it from there, this is the same for any other package in the
Debian repos, fvwm is not unusual here.

[Thomas Adam]

Post by Vincent W. Chen
Hi,
Before the current version in Debian unstable (2.6.5), when a user
starts fvwm with no config file, the default from
/etc/X11/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc would be used instead. The intention
seems to be to offer users a more usable starting config with which to
customize[1]. However, according to Thomas in bug #598948 [2], this
differs from the upstream behavior, causes support problems upstream,
and is currently undocumented.

It's ironic because by including it, and hence potentially forcing and
allowing it on users, we at FVWM are indirectly responsible in maintaining
and helping support that configuration.

In the general case that's probably OK; most users' problems tend to fall
outside of anything that might be contained in their config file, but it
certainly adds unnecessary complexity for the user.

I say ditch it (and hence resolve #598948) and do nothing more than to patch
FVWM in Debian to hook in to its menu system (this used to be the case in
the FVWM package; did you do this, and/or do you need help with this?)

If you really want to make an impact and an entertaining challenge, try and
get FVWM to ship with a default config upstream, thus alleviating the hard
work in maintaining such a file as a Debian-specific oddity.

[...]

Post by Vincent W. Chen
P.S. Should I also ask this on debian-user? Not sure where Debian FVWM
users congregate...

I don't think that's necessary.

-- Thomas Adam