FVWM: Taking a break...

[Thomas Adam]

Hi all,

It umm, well it seems I can't quite deal with this how I'd like, so
for the benefit of the project, I think I will take a short break -- I
appreciate "sticks and stones" and all that, but when someone has
repeatedly wished you would drop dead, it is a little dis-heartening.

So I will take a break and possibly come back.

-- Thomas Adam

[Glyn Millington]

Post by Thomas Adam
Hi all,
It umm, well it seems I can't quite deal with this how I'd like, so
for the benefit of the project, I think I will take a short break -- I
appreciate "sticks and stones" and all that, but when someone has
repeatedly wished you would drop dead, it is a little dis-heartening.
So I will take a break and possibly come back.

Hey Thomas, enjoy the break but please come back!!

atb




Glyn

[Jaimos F Skriletz]

Post by Thomas Adam
Hi all,
It umm, well it seems I can't quite deal with this how I'd like, so
for the benefit of the project, I think I will take a short break -- I
appreciate "sticks and stones" and all that, but when someone has
repeatedly wished you would drop dead, it is a little dis-heartening.
So I will take a break and possibly come back.
-- Thomas Adam

Best of luck to you Thomas. Over the years I have grown to appreciate
and enjoy your insights and how much you have helped the FVWM community.
I know you will find a place in which you will be truly appreciated for
your generosity and ability. Here is wishing to see you again.

jaimos

[Charlie]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:00:46 +0100 Thomas Adam

Post by Thomas Adam
Hi all,
It umm, well it seems I can't quite deal with this how I'd like, so
for the benefit of the project, I think I will take a short break -- I
appreciate "sticks and stones" and all that, but when someone has
repeatedly wished you would drop dead, it is a little dis-heartening.
So I will take a break and possibly come back.
-- Thomas Adam

Thanks for your help Thomas, much appreciated, don't stay away too
long, I have a feeling I might need your good counsel in the near
future.

Be well,
Charlie
--
Registered Linux User:- 329524
.....................................................

We falsely attribute to men a determined character -- putting together
all their yesterdays -- and averaging them -- we presume we know them.
Pity the man who has character to support -- it is worse than a large
family -- he is the silent poor indeed.......Henry David Thoreau

.....................................................

Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic

[Hans Voss]

(apologies for top post)
You deserve a break.
All the best, see you around later.

Post by Thomas Adam
Hi all,
It umm, well it seems I can't quite deal with this how I'd like, so
for the benefit of the project, I think I will take a short break -- I
appreciate "sticks and stones" and all that, but when someone has
repeatedly wished you would drop dead, it is a little dis-heartening.
So I will take a break and possibly come back.
-- Thomas Adam

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[Erich Hoffmann]

Post by Thomas Adam
Hi all,
It umm, well it seems I can't quite deal with this how I'd like, so
for the benefit of the project, I think I will take a short break -- I
appreciate "sticks and stones" and all that, but when someone has
repeatedly wished you would drop dead, it is a little dis-heartening.
So I will take a break and possibly come back.
-- Thomas Adam

You helped me, too. I'm a constant fvwm user since then.
Come back after your break! For the benefit of the project.

On the other hand I can understand your reaction. A couple of years
ago I exchanged mails with someone in another group and suddenly
got a reply from that person, calling me @?=*** (not to be repeated
here). OK it was pretty soon obvious that the address was faked,
another person tried to insult me and discredit my mail partner.
Obviously there are people stabilizing themselves by trying to harm
others for no other reasons. Sometimes it hits us. It shouldn't, but
sometimes it does.

I'm no psychologist, but it seems to me that Darren's posts are not
bad english, but disordered.

Best, Erich

[Lucio Chiappetti]

I am addressing this to the list. I'm putting the others in cc: since I'm
not sure they will be reading the list at this time.

First of all I want to thank Thomas Adam for all the work and all the help
he has put in fvwm and the associated list, and hope to see him around on
the list soon after a well deserved period of rest. We need him !

Second, I'm not sure if the list has an official policy, but if not I
think it's time to get one, and prevent further cases of trolling and
offending posts. I believe the policy should grant absolute authority to
the list owner to expel the e-mail address of an offending person. I do
not think this list is managed by mailman, but I hope the list management
software offers similar filters on rejection and denied subscription as
mailman does (with very little effort).

[Lucio Chiappetti]

I've just switched on a new machine with suse 11.3. Apparently it has
bundled fvwm 2.5.26.

I'm getting some errors using my old .fvwm2rc (happily running on suse 9.2
with fvwm 2.5.10). E.g. no pager, no desktops etc. I suspect some paths
have changed.

Before I look into it directly, I created a fresh dummy user, and started
a fvwm session from scratch. That comes out with some default theme, but
does not create any .fvwm2rc (or config, as I realize it should now be
called based on the man page). So I suspect it uses some system default.

It would be a good idea for me to look at that to merge in useful stuff.
But where is it based ?

The man page mentions 2+5 possible locations, in ~, /usr/local/share
and /etc. None of which exists. I have however found one in
/etc/X11/fvwn2/system.fvwmrc (which is even "signed" Thomas Adams).

Is it the correct one to look at ?

Thanks

[d***@verizon.net]

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
I've just switched on a new machine with suse 11.3. Apparently it has
bundled fvwm 2.5.26.
I'm getting some errors using my old .fvwm2rc (happily running on suse
9.2 with fvwm 2.5.10). E.g. no pager, no desktops etc. I suspect some
paths have changed.

First thing to check,
make sure you are NOT setting ModulePath in your config file.

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
Before I look into it directly, I created a fresh dummy user, and started
a fvwm session from scratch. That comes out with some default theme,
but does not create any .fvwm2rc (or config, as I realize it should
now be called based on the man page). So I suspect it uses some system
default.

It uses the built in default, which is not much, but you should be
able to press F1, get a menu and create a config from there.

If you liked what you had in your previous config file,
it should not be that hard to correct any problems you have in there
and continue using it.

[Thomas Adam]

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
I've just switched on a new machine with suse 11.3. Apparently it
has bundled fvwm 2.5.26.
I'm getting some errors using my old .fvwm2rc (happily running on
suse 9.2 with fvwm 2.5.10). E.g. no pager, no desktops etc. I
suspect some paths have changed.

I'd need to see this.

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
Before I look into it directly, I created a fresh dummy user, and started
a fvwm session from scratch. That comes out with some default theme,
but does not create any .fvwm2rc (or config, as I realize it should
now be called based on the man page). So I suspect it uses some
system default.

So it will be trying to look for the config files under INITIALIZATION (see
man fvwm), else it will default to using FVWM's in-built menu functionality
providing the means to generate a per-user config.

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
It would be a good idea for me to look at that to merge in useful stuff.
But where is it based ?

I suspect the /etc/X11/fvwm2/ directory was once a symlink to somewhere more
meaningful to FVWM, although I couldn't say I don't use SuSE anymore, and
have not done so for a good fourteen years or so.

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
The man page mentions 2+5 possible locations, in ~, /usr/local/share
and /etc. None of which exists. I have however found one in
/etc/X11/fvwn2/system.fvwmrc (which is even "signed" Thomas Adams).

Yes, I remember updating it. I suspect there's two things going on here:

* Almost certainly deprecated options.
* The shipped file being in the wrong location on disk.

If you send me the system.fvwmrc file anyway (the one which has my name on
it), I'll happily convert it over to use 2.5.26+ syntax. I suspect there
won't be many changes.

Then we can sort out where on disk it should go.

-- Thomas Adam

[Lucio Chiappetti]

I am noting a funny (and sort of annoying behaviour) when using firefox
and acrobat reader in a fvmw session under suse 11.3 (newly installed).

The topmost menu bar (File Edit ...) has white text onto black background,
although I do not have any X resource in .Xdefaults which makes that.
The same colour applies to all pull down menus, and for acrobat also to
the bookmark window.

The remaining menu bars and widget are normal (black on light grey).

Actually the problem occurs both for a test user which imported all my old
personal configuration (.Xdefaults, .mozilla/* etc. .fvmw) as well for a
test user created afresh which has none of those files (and uses for fvwm
the system-bundled fvwmrc ... actually it is using the one recently
modified by Thomas Adams as a kind reply to a recent post of mine).

The problem does not occur if firefox or acrobat are run from KDE.

So this makes me think of some sort of interference, like firefox and
acrobat are picking up those resources from somewhere in the fvwm
configuration, or not finding something they expect.

I would be glad to override this with X resources, but I'm not sure
firefox and acrobat honour them in the usual way. I tried editres to get
the widget tree and it returns nothing.

Any idea of the reason, and a possible workaround within .fvwm2rc ?

[Thomas Adam]

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
I am noting a funny (and sort of annoying behaviour) when using
firefox and acrobat reader in a fvmw session under suse 11.3 (newly
installed).
The topmost menu bar (File Edit ...) has white text onto black
background, although I do not have any X resource in .Xdefaults
which makes that.
The same colour applies to all pull down menus, and for acrobat also
to the bookmark window.
The remaining menu bars and widget are normal (black on light grey).
Actually the problem occurs both for a test user which imported all
my old personal configuration (.Xdefaults, .mozilla/* etc. .fvmw) as
well for a test user created afresh which has none of those files
(and uses for fvwm the system-bundled fvwmrc ... actually it is
using the one recently modified by Thomas Adams as a kind reply to a
recent post of mine).
The problem does not occur if firefox or acrobat are run from KDE.
So this makes me think of some sort of interference, like firefox
and acrobat are picking up those resources from somewhere in the
fvwm configuration, or not finding something they expect.
I would be glad to override this with X resources, but I'm not sure
firefox and acrobat honour them in the usual way. I tried editres to
get the widget tree and it returns nothing.
Any idea of the reason, and a possible workaround within .fvwm2rc ?

Sounds like the Colormap is used up. Try adding to your .fvwm2rc file:

ColormapFocus FollowsFocus

-- Thomas Adam

[Lucio Chiappetti]

Post by Thomas Adam
ColormapFocus FollowsFocus

Sorry, no effect at all.
(I had FollowsMouse before, according to system default)

[Thomas Adam]

Post by Lucio Chiappetti

Post by Thomas Adam
ColormapFocus FollowsFocus

Sorry, no effect at all.
(I had FollowsMouse before, according to system default)

It wasn't guaranteed to help, just that it might.

There's nothing FVWM can do to help you here if it is a colormap problem --
it certainly sounds like it based on your description. Last I checked,
Acroread (despite being a piece of crap [1]) used Motif, whilst Firefox
(from your example) does not.

So it won't be an .Xdefaults problem in terms of comparing Firefox with
Acroread. It could be that Acroread what it starts up is overriding the
XResource stuff via XAPPSDIR for itself. You should check that.

Not an FVWM problem that I can tell.

-- Thomas Adam

[1] Any reason why you don't use some other PDF viewer? This is rhetorical,
I don't want an actual answer.

[Lucio Chiappetti]

Post by Thomas Adam

Post by Lucio Chiappetti

Post by Thomas Adam
ColormapFocus FollowsFocus

Sorry, no effect at all.

There's nothing FVWM can do to help you here if it is a colormap problem
-- it certainly sounds like it based on your description.

Hmm ... but why should it be ? In the test arrangement I've used there are
very few applications running (a couple of xterm, firefox, FvwmPager and a
clock), should not be intensive on the colour map.

Post by Thomas Adam
Not an FVWM problem that I can tell.

Yes but then why the root user, which uses a (more complicated, and
presumably more colour intensive) KDE session does not show the problem
with firefox and acroread ?


I've tried a xwininfo (under fvmw) on both the old and new system (*) and
for both I get Visual Class: TrueColor. The old one (suse 9.2) however
gives Depth: 16, and the new one Depth: 24 ... will THAT make a difference?

I had a very quick look about colormaps in man fvwm. I see there start
time switches like -l which can be used ... but I have no idea how SuSE
kdm starts fvwm (once an user has chosen an fvwm session, that remains the
default for him at future logins ... but is not stored in the user home),
and how I could apply them.


(*) incidentally, at the moment both the old and new systems are connected
to the SAME physical monitor via a D-link KVM switch. No idea if that can
cause problems (sometimes it does with the resolution) ... also old Suse's
had "sax2" which could be used to tune the X server, but this is gone.

Post by Thomas Adam
[1] Any reason why you don't use some other PDF viewer?

I never looked deeply into how many there are (and I'm already using
enough "not distro bundled" stuff for other things :-)). I was happy with
the old and light acroread I had on 9.2 and is the sort of thing one
expectes to find everywhere. Sometimes used xpdf for "newer" files which
made the old acroread fail. But I do not like that much the look of the
more recent acroread so it would be a good moment to switch.

[Lucio Chiappetti]

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
I've tried a xwininfo (under fvmw) on both the old and new system (*)
and for both I get Visual Class: TrueColor. The old one (suse 9.2)
however gives Depth: 16, and the new one Depth: 24 ... will THAT make a
difference?

Apparently not.

Found an easy way to change depth (added DefaultDepth 16 in
/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/50-screen.conf, restarted and checked), and still I
get the white on black bars.

[Lucio Chiappetti]

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
I am noting a funny (and sort of annoying behaviour) when using firefox
and acrobat reader in a fvmw session under suse 11.3 (newly installed).

Apparently also openoffice is showing the same behaviour.

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
The topmost menu bar (File Edit ...) has white text onto black
background, The remaining menu bars and widget are normal (black on
light grey).

For firefox there is a partial workaround. I always hated "themes" but I
found a sort of lightweight themes called "personas". If one goes to the
site where one can load them, one can also test them. They appear to
replace the menu bar and other bars with some pictured background. My
workaround was to choose a "persona" called "simple fox" (useless to say,
no picture, just solid gray :-)).

This makes me think that all those applications are NOT using a specific
fg/bg colour for the top menu bar, but leaving it somehow transparent
letting some w.m. default shining through. I suppose in KDE what shines
through is determined by the default KDE theme ... how could I set a
similar "super-default" in fvwm ? a plain *background: and *foreground:
in .Xdefaults is no good.

[Robert Heller]

Post by Lucio Chiappetti

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
I am noting a funny (and sort of annoying behaviour) when using firefox
and acrobat reader in a fvmw session under suse 11.3 (newly installed).

Apparently also openoffice is showing the same behaviour.

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
The topmost menu bar (File Edit ...) has white text onto black
background, The remaining menu bars and widget are normal (black on
light grey).

For firefox there is a partial workaround. I always hated "themes" but I
found a sort of lightweight themes called "personas". If one goes to the
site where one can load them, one can also test them. They appear to
replace the menu bar and other bars with some pictured background. My
workaround was to choose a "persona" called "simple fox" (useless to say,
no picture, just solid gray :-)).
This makes me think that all those applications are NOT using a specific
fg/bg colour for the top menu bar, but leaving it somehow transparent
letting some w.m. default shining through. I suppose in KDE what shines
through is determined by the default KDE theme ... how could I set a
in .Xdefaults is no good.

To make FireFox (and other GNome-flavored applications) 'play nice'
with FVWM, I fire up a minimal bit of GNome:
/usr/libexec/gnome-settings-daemon. By firing this up with a properly
setup ~/.gconf<mumble> directory/files, I can get FireFox to be set up
with the proper Gnome 'theme' (I created a minimual theme that suited).

(I actually use a 'session manager' I wrote in Tcl/Tk -- the session
manager fires up fvwm and the gnome-settings-daemon.)

[Lucio Chiappetti]

Post by Robert Heller

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
The topmost menu bar (File Edit ...) has white text onto black
background, The remaining menu bars and widget are normal

For firefox there is a partial workaround. ["persona" "simple fox"]

To make FireFox (and other GNome-flavored applications) 'play nice'
/usr/libexec/gnome-settings-daemon. By firing this up with a properly
setup ~/.gconf<mumble> directory/files, I can get FireFox to be set up
with the proper Gnome 'theme' (I created a minimual theme that suited).

So you are confirming there are applications which are ill-behaved with
fvwm ? I hope this info makes sense with Thomas Adam.

I am REALLY reluctant to have to learn gnome just to bypass its features
(if I understand correctly). Actually I'm not even sure it is installed
(our institute-wide base pre-installation prepared by our sys man replied
"KDE" when offered the choice "KDE vs gnome") ... and under KDE those
applications are well-behaved.

Would you mind to share this "minimal theme" ?

Or will Thomas Adam have a simpler workaround at .fvwmrc level if this
diagnosis makes sense to him ?

[Thomas Adam]

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
Or will Thomas Adam have a simpler workaround at .fvwmrc level if this
diagnosis makes sense to him ?

Thomas Adam says it's still not an FVWM problem. :)

If it is GTK related, that's down to GTK, although running the whole
of gnome-settings-daemon is not necessary when you can use things like
gtk-chtheme to set your .gtkrc stuff up. Although anything more
complicated will require you to edit it by hand anyway.

-- Thomas Adam

[d***@verizon.net]

Post by Thomas Adam

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
Or will Thomas Adam have a simpler workaround at .fvwmrc level if this
diagnosis makes sense to him ?

Thomas Adam says it's still not an FVWM problem. :)

Agree 100%.

I notice that the various settings dialogs don't show up in the
new version of fvwm-menu-desktop I'm working on. At some point I'll
try to figure out why.

[Thomas Adam]

Post by d***@verizon.net

Post by Thomas Adam

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
Or will Thomas Adam have a simpler workaround at .fvwmrc level if this
diagnosis makes sense to him ?

Thomas Adam says it's still not an FVWM problem. :)

Agree 100%.
I notice that the various settings dialogs don't show up in the
new version of fvwm-menu-desktop I'm working on. At some point I'll
try to figure out why.

Settings dialogues?

-- Thomas Adam

[d***@verizon.net]

Post by Thomas Adam

Post by d***@verizon.net

Post by Thomas Adam

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
Or will Thomas Adam have a simpler workaround at .fvwmrc level if this
diagnosis makes sense to him ?

Thomas Adam says it's still not an FVWM problem. :)

Agree 100%.
I notice that the various settings dialogs don't show up in the
new version of fvwm-menu-desktop I'm working on. At some point I'll
try to figure out why.

Settings dialogues?

When I run xdg_menu the "system tools" menu does not
contain the gnome-control-center. As far as I can tell,
none of the menus lead to gnome-control-center.

Since gnome-control-center is needed even when you aren't
running gnome as your desktop I'd like for it to be in the
menus generated.

...

Okay, just found out why. The menu entry is marked "NoDisplay".
Other entries marked NoDisplay:

nodisplay entry Preferred Web Browser, exec /backup/local/local/lib/firefox-3.0.9/firefox "%s"
nodisplay entry Evolution Mail and Calendar, exec evolution
nodisplay entry Metacity, exec metacity
nodisplay entry Font Viewer, exec gnome-font-viewer %u
nodisplay entry File Manager, exec nautilus
nodisplay entry Brasero, exec brasero -c %u
nodisplay entry Audacious, exec audacious
nodisplay entry OpenOffice.org Math, exec openoffice.org -math %U
nodisplay entry Qt4 Config , exec qtconfig-qt4
nodisplay entry Image Viewer, exec eog %U
nodisplay entry Open Folder, exec nautilus --no-desktop %U
nodisplay entry Archive Mounter, exec /usr/libexec/gvfsd-archive file=%u
nodisplay entry About GNOME, exec gnome-about
nodisplay entry Manage Print Jobs, exec system-config-printer-applet --no-tray-icon
nodisplay entry gThumb, exec gthumb --import-photos %U
nodisplay entry Autorun Prompt, exec nautilus-autorun-software %u
nodisplay entry Theme Installer, exec gnome-appearance-properties -i %u
nodisplay entry Search for Files..., exec gnome-search-tool
nodisplay entry IcedTea Web Start, exec /usr/bin/javaws %f
nodisplay entry Enqueue in SMPlayer, exec smplayer -add-to-playlist %F
nodisplay entry Compiz, exec compiz-gtk
nodisplay entry Open Folder with Thunar, exec Thunar %F
nodisplay entry XMMS, exec xmms -p -e %F
nodisplay entry Document Viewer, exec evince %U
nodisplay entry Panel, exec gnome-panel
nodisplay entry KRemoteControl Notifier Item, exec krcdnotifieritem
nodisplay entry Konqueror, exec kfmclient openURL %u inode/directory
nodisplay entry Konqueror, exec kfmclient openURL %u text/html
nodisplay entry Konqueror, exec kfmclient openURL %u
nodisplay entry File Manager - Super User Mode, exec konqueror --profile filemanagement
nodisplay entry Wallet Management Tool, exec kwalletmanager --kwalletd
nodisplay entry System Information, exec kfmclient openURL %u application/x-sysinfo
nodisplay entry KNetAttach, exec knetattach
nodisplay entry Bookmark Editor, exec keditbookmarks
nodisplay entry Change Password, exec kdepasswd
nodisplay entry KFontView, exec kfontview %U
nodisplay entry Menu Editor, exec kmenuedit
nodisplay entry Konqueror, exec kfmclient openURL %u application/x-webarchive
nodisplay entry Catalog Installer, exec /usr/bin/gpk-install-catalog %F
nodisplay entry Package Installer, exec /usr/bin/gpk-install-local-file %F
nodisplay entry Control Center, exec gnome-control-center

[Lucio Chiappetti]

Post by Thomas Adam
Thomas Adam says it's still not an FVWM problem. :)

Of course I did not intend to blame FVWM !
Actually I hoped it had a quick-and-more-or-less-dirty workaround !

(after all openoffice, acroread and firefox are not unusual applications
... I remember there were some adhoc style in the 9.2 .fvwmrc)

Post by Thomas Adam
gtk-chtheme to set your .gtkrc stuff up. Although anything more
complicated will require you to edit it by hand anyway.

Thats arabic to me.
I do not think those stuff is even installed (I'll check on Monday),
surely whereis does not find it.

Since all the matter seems to force some sort of "default bg/fg", I'd be
glad on editing once forever a fixed file.

I tried importing in my user home the .gnome* .gt* and .gconf* stuff which
user root (which runs under KDE) has, but they have no effect.

(after spending two hours discovering the mysql init.d script included in
the distribution has a bug, which does exactly the opposite of what is
written in the comments ... and which is sensible to do, and was written
in my old notes, grr !)

Nice weekend to everybody !
(possibly without snow)

[Robert Heller]

Post by Thomas Adam

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
Or will Thomas Adam have a simpler workaround at .fvwmrc level if this
diagnosis makes sense to him ?

Thomas Adam says it's still not an FVWM problem. :)
If it is GTK related, that's down to GTK, although running the whole
of gnome-settings-daemon is not necessary when you can use things like
gtk-chtheme to set your .gtkrc stuff up. Although anything more
complicated will require you to edit it by hand anyway.

*I* don't seem to have gtk-chtheme installed on my system (CentOS 5.5,
control-center-2.16.0-16.el5, gnome-<mumble>-2.16.0-<mumble>). I did
run some gnome theme thingy to get the theme stuff setup, but FireFox
seems to want to get the info from gnome-settings-daemon and not by
reading the various dot-files. The 'theme' settings did not take until I
fired up gnome-settings-daemon.

*I* would agree it is not a 'FVWM problem' -- it is a *stupidity* with
*some* GTK applications, ones that *assume* that they are running in a
[GNome] 'desktop manager' environment (with all that is implied with
such an environment) and don't really allow for people who might want
to use these applications under a *different* sort of environment (such
as one without *any* 'desktop manager' running). These applications
either fallback to something stupid/ugly or leave some appearence
features unset or something -- they just don't have a 'sensible'
*alternitive* way to get the appearence settings.

Post by Thomas Adam
-- Thomas Adam

[Thomas Adam]

Post by Robert Heller

Post by Thomas Adam

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
Or will Thomas Adam have a simpler workaround at .fvwmrc level if this
diagnosis makes sense to him ?

Thomas Adam says it's still not an FVWM problem. :)
If it is GTK related, that's down to GTK, although running the whole
of gnome-settings-daemon is not necessary when you can use things like
gtk-chtheme to set your .gtkrc stuff up. Although anything more
complicated will require you to edit it by hand anyway.

*I* don't seem to have gtk-chtheme installed on my system (CentOS 5.5,
control-center-2.16.0-16.el5, gnome-<mumble>-2.16.0-<mumble>). I did
run some gnome theme thingy to get the theme stuff setup, but FireFox
seems to want to get the info from gnome-settings-daemon and not by
reading the various dot-files. The 'theme' settings did not take until I
fired up gnome-settings-daemon.

Yeah -- that's because they use gconf to actuall enact them. Whereas, the
rest of us who aren't running a fully-fledged framework in which to run a
desktop environment can achieve the exact same effect by tweaking the
.gtkrc-2.0 file.

Simple.

Post by Robert Heller
*I* would agree it is not a 'FVWM problem' -- it is a *stupidity* with
*some* GTK applications, ones that *assume* that they are running in a
[GNome] 'desktop manager' environment (with all that is implied with
such an environment) and don't really allow for people who might want
to use these applications under a *different* sort of environment (such
as one without *any* 'desktop manager' running). These applications
either fallback to something stupid/ugly or leave some appearence
features unset or something -- they just don't have a 'sensible'
*alternitive* way to get the appearence settings.

See above -- and I get your point, without the over-excessive, if strong,
wording *between* *asterisks*.

There's a reason why I say it's not an FVWM problem, by the way. Not
because I can't be bothered to fix it (I think I've done enoug bug-fixes for
one year), but because FVWM (to use your phraseology): *doesn't* *control*
*applications* in how they theme themselves. All FVWM does is reparent said
application within its own window -- what many people refer to the
titlebar, borders, etc. It's that window which FVWM controls, nothing more.

-- Thomas Adam

[Robert Heller]

Post by Lucio Chiappetti

Post by Robert Heller

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
The topmost menu bar (File Edit ...) has white text onto black
background, The remaining menu bars and widget are normal

For firefox there is a partial workaround. ["persona" "simple fox"]

To make FireFox (and other GNome-flavored applications) 'play nice'
/usr/libexec/gnome-settings-daemon. By firing this up with a properly
setup ~/.gconf<mumble> directory/files, I can get FireFox to be set up
with the proper Gnome 'theme' (I created a minimual theme that suited).

So you are confirming there are applications which are ill-behaved with
fvwm ? I hope this info makes sense with Thomas Adam.

Not so much 'ill-behaved', just that things like various sorts of
appearence settings are just not possible without gnome-settings-daemon
running. Without gnome-settings-daemon I get some 'funky' defaults
that cannot be changed (and look weird compared to the rest of the
applications I run). It is that these 'new-fangled' applications no
longer even look at the X11 resource DB (dislike!) and are using some
other mechanism, one that *requires* certain parts of the desktop
manager running.

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
I am REALLY reluctant to have to learn gnome just to bypass its features
(if I understand correctly). Actually I'm not even sure it is installed
(our institute-wide base pre-installation prepared by our sys man replied
"KDE" when offered the choice "KDE vs gnome") ... and under KDE those
applications are well-behaved.
Would you mind to share this "minimal theme" ?

I'm not sure how to do that. I had to fumble with gnome's theme manager
program and don't know where the 'theme' per se lives.

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
Or will Thomas Adam have a simpler workaround at .fvwmrc level if this
diagnosis makes sense to him ?

If FVWM could 'fake' what it is that gnome-settings-daemon does, which
I think it is creating a UNIX socket in /tmp/orbit-$USER/ and then
making some config mumbo jumbo available, that would be great. I don't
know if it is documented or if there is a GTK-ish library that deals
with this. It might not be a GNome-specific thing, just some sort of
'desktop manager' business using ORBit2. And probably KDE has its own
version of gnome-settings-daemon that does what is needful for FireFox,
etc. behave with proper theme-ish settings. Maybe what is needed is
some FVWM *module* that hooks into ORBit2 and also provides some proper
theme-ish appearence settings for those applications that need this
sort of thing (and which won't fallback and use the X11 Resource DB).

[Thomas Adam]

Post by Robert Heller
If FVWM could 'fake' what it is that gnome-settings-daemon does, which

No -- see previous reply to you in this thread as to why.

[...]

-- Thomas Adam

[d***@verizon.net]

Post by Robert Heller

Post by Lucio Chiappetti

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
I am noting a funny (and sort of annoying behaviour) when using firefox
and acrobat reader in a fvmw session under suse 11.3 (newly installed).

Apparently also openoffice is showing the same behaviour.

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
The topmost menu bar (File Edit ...) has white text onto black
background, The remaining menu bars and widget are normal (black on
light grey).

For firefox there is a partial workaround. I always hated "themes" but I
found a sort of lightweight themes called "personas". If one goes to the
site where one can load them, one can also test them. They appear to
replace the menu bar and other bars with some pictured background. My
workaround was to choose a "persona" called "simple fox" (useless to say,
no picture, just solid gray :-)).
This makes me think that all those applications are NOT using a specific
fg/bg colour for the top menu bar, but leaving it somehow transparent
letting some w.m. default shining through. I suppose in KDE what shines
through is determined by the default KDE theme ... how could I set a
in .Xdefaults is no good.

To make FireFox (and other GNome-flavored applications) 'play nice'
/usr/libexec/gnome-settings-daemon. By firing this up with a properly
setup ~/.gconf<mumble> directory/files, I can get FireFox to be set up
with the proper Gnome 'theme' (I created a minimual theme that suited).
(I actually use a 'session manager' I wrote in Tcl/Tk -- the session
manager fires up fvwm and the gnome-settings-daemon.)

Recently I posted how to start that daemon and some other things
from a .xinitrc. Start the .xinitrc like this:

if [ -f /usr/bin/ck-xinit-session ] ; then
if [ "$1" = "startsess" ] ; then
shift
else
exec ck-xinit-session /home/dane/.xinitrc startsess
fi
fi

If you start using the KDE or Gnome login manager, you don't
need to do this.

As far as fvwm and gnome and kde getting along,
they get along just fine.
Just start up your distros "preferences" dialog.
For Fedora, it's gnome-control-center.
Then select appearance, and select a theme.

Works for me.

[d***@verizon.net]

Post by Lucio Chiappetti
I am noting a funny (and sort of annoying behaviour) when using
firefox and acrobat reader in a fvmw session under suse 11.3 (newly
installed).
The topmost menu bar (File Edit ...) has white text onto black
background, although I do not have any X resource in .Xdefaults which
makes that.
The same colour applies to all pull down menus, and for acrobat also
to the bookmark window.

That's not x-resources, the desktop environments stopped using them.
They set their preferences in config files.

Look for a .kde, .gnome, .gnome2 file or something like that.

Or you could bring up your distros desktop settings dialog
and change it there.